I have to say, THFRO now joins the very short list of movies that are actually better than the source material. I have read every Clancy penned novel, and he clearly refined his writing, particularly the over-abundance of non-critical detail over the years. This book is a real slog to get through in places.
A nitpicking detail, perhaps which our esteemed hosts/authors could shed light on, is the idea that Skip Tyler, identified as a second string All-American selection at right tackle, could be submariner. David Robinson notwithstanding, I assumed there would be some kind of size restrictions on a submarine captain--or even crew. I know the lineman were not the gargantuan size as they are these days, but they were still in the "jumbo-tall-and-heavy" category. Not an important detail, but still stuck out to me...
I have to say this is the first time we've been described as "esteemed," but we'll take it.
The over-detail in Clancy's novels is a feature, not a bug, but it is something that some readers are really hungry for. We try to be accurate in tech details without overdoing it. (Our informal rule is we have to limit an explanation to 2 sentences.)
Re Skip Tyler's size, I hadn't really thought about it. Navy football even today is not usually in the "jumbo" category. (If you saw them get thrashed by Notre Dame last weekend, you know what I'm talking about.) If there are size restrictions on subs, I'm not aware of them. I'm 6'2" and I hit my head all the time!
The movie is still my favorite sub movie of all time.
Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions.
I totally get what you are saying abut Navy football. Recruiting must be particularly challenging given the admission standards at the Academy, so an undersized line fits with that. It is interesting to know that, contrary to what I may have heard or the logical supposition, that there are no official restrictions on size--6'2'', wow, that must have come with its own challenges for you (in addition to banging your head).
I also understand your point about the excruciating detail being a feature and not a bug. As I mentioned, I have enjoyed this as a "feature" in all of Clancy's other books--oftentimes some seemingly innocuous event will pop up later as being an important occurrence in the narrative--always an amazing connection as it initially appears to be so random.
On the other hand, not to belabor the point, but I did not find this same ultimate connection in THFRO, and some of this detail ultimately felt superfluous to the total narrative, and therefore, needlessly distracting and, frankly, tedious.
Of course, your mileage may vary.
And absolutely, the movie is definitely the best sub movie I have ever seen.
Thank you again for your time, and for doing this read-along. This is great fun, and I appreciate your professional insights.
Hi Bruce - It's great to chat this stuff out. Thanks for coming along for the read. I think it's important to remember that this was Clancy's first book so he was still learning on the job. I recall reading somewhere that the original manuscript was well over 1000 pages, so there was a whole lot of cutting going on! His first publisher (US Naval Institute Press) also did not publish fiction so they might have had a different take on some of the tech details as well.
Re Navy football, remember that these guys are naval midshipmen first and football players second. Yes, they are often recruited, but they still have to go through the same Plebe Summer and academic year that the rest of the Brigade endures/enjoys. (Same for the other service academies.)
I couldn't hold to just reading a few chapters a week and finished in three days even though this was at least the 3rd or 4th time I'd read it. One of the things that struck me was how many things have changed over the last 40 years. I think the story stands the test of time very well on the technology side of the story, but BRAC sure had an effect on story locations.
I like your comments on the writing style which is something I never thought about. Though I think you are only partially correct on the suspension building comments. I think what held me more the first time I read this 40 years ago was that it could be real. The cold war was real and even those of us in the Army knew that things were happening on submarines.
Overall, I agree that the story stands up, some of the locations notwithstanding. That said, part of the appeal of the story at the time was how much it was on the leading edge of a cultural change WRT the USSR. While military members talked and trained on the Soviet threat all the time, the general public was still getting educated, esp about what was happening on subs.
Great analysis letting us in on Clacy's and the Navy Guys' creative process. I feel like I'm back in a Humanities class trying to make connections. Are you guys giving out credit or are we just allowed to audit?
I have to say, THFRO now joins the very short list of movies that are actually better than the source material. I have read every Clancy penned novel, and he clearly refined his writing, particularly the over-abundance of non-critical detail over the years. This book is a real slog to get through in places.
A nitpicking detail, perhaps which our esteemed hosts/authors could shed light on, is the idea that Skip Tyler, identified as a second string All-American selection at right tackle, could be submariner. David Robinson notwithstanding, I assumed there would be some kind of size restrictions on a submarine captain--or even crew. I know the lineman were not the gargantuan size as they are these days, but they were still in the "jumbo-tall-and-heavy" category. Not an important detail, but still stuck out to me...
I have to say this is the first time we've been described as "esteemed," but we'll take it.
The over-detail in Clancy's novels is a feature, not a bug, but it is something that some readers are really hungry for. We try to be accurate in tech details without overdoing it. (Our informal rule is we have to limit an explanation to 2 sentences.)
Re Skip Tyler's size, I hadn't really thought about it. Navy football even today is not usually in the "jumbo" category. (If you saw them get thrashed by Notre Dame last weekend, you know what I'm talking about.) If there are size restrictions on subs, I'm not aware of them. I'm 6'2" and I hit my head all the time!
The movie is still my favorite sub movie of all time.
Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions.
I totally get what you are saying abut Navy football. Recruiting must be particularly challenging given the admission standards at the Academy, so an undersized line fits with that. It is interesting to know that, contrary to what I may have heard or the logical supposition, that there are no official restrictions on size--6'2'', wow, that must have come with its own challenges for you (in addition to banging your head).
I also understand your point about the excruciating detail being a feature and not a bug. As I mentioned, I have enjoyed this as a "feature" in all of Clancy's other books--oftentimes some seemingly innocuous event will pop up later as being an important occurrence in the narrative--always an amazing connection as it initially appears to be so random.
On the other hand, not to belabor the point, but I did not find this same ultimate connection in THFRO, and some of this detail ultimately felt superfluous to the total narrative, and therefore, needlessly distracting and, frankly, tedious.
Of course, your mileage may vary.
And absolutely, the movie is definitely the best sub movie I have ever seen.
Thank you again for your time, and for doing this read-along. This is great fun, and I appreciate your professional insights.
Hi Bruce - It's great to chat this stuff out. Thanks for coming along for the read. I think it's important to remember that this was Clancy's first book so he was still learning on the job. I recall reading somewhere that the original manuscript was well over 1000 pages, so there was a whole lot of cutting going on! His first publisher (US Naval Institute Press) also did not publish fiction so they might have had a different take on some of the tech details as well.
Re Navy football, remember that these guys are naval midshipmen first and football players second. Yes, they are often recruited, but they still have to go through the same Plebe Summer and academic year that the rest of the Brigade endures/enjoys. (Same for the other service academies.)
I couldn't hold to just reading a few chapters a week and finished in three days even though this was at least the 3rd or 4th time I'd read it. One of the things that struck me was how many things have changed over the last 40 years. I think the story stands the test of time very well on the technology side of the story, but BRAC sure had an effect on story locations.
I like your comments on the writing style which is something I never thought about. Though I think you are only partially correct on the suspension building comments. I think what held me more the first time I read this 40 years ago was that it could be real. The cold war was real and even those of us in the Army knew that things were happening on submarines.
Overall, I agree that the story stands up, some of the locations notwithstanding. That said, part of the appeal of the story at the time was how much it was on the leading edge of a cultural change WRT the USSR. While military members talked and trained on the Soviet threat all the time, the general public was still getting educated, esp about what was happening on subs.
Great analysis letting us in on Clacy's and the Navy Guys' creative process. I feel like I'm back in a Humanities class trying to make connections. Are you guys giving out credit or are we just allowed to audit?
Ha! Maybe we’ll make up a diploma if you can pass the exam at end !